The Visitor. But is it necessary to punish with death such transgressions against religion? Do the Sutras you quote bear you out in this? Is not such a punishment in reality a murder, and is not murder a sin? I find it written in the Mahasampata Sutra, that "when a man shaves his head and assumes the monk's cowl, whether he keep the commandments or not, he is one whom angels and men should reverence, for he is a son of Mine. To

thrash him is to thrash a son of Mine, to revile him is to revile Me." Now, is it right for me to grieve the heart of our Great Father by injuring his sons? The man who attacked Maudgalyayana fell into the lowest hell, and Devadatta, for the murder of an ecclesiastic, suffered long and continued torments. I cannot accept your doctrine, I cannot agree with your views. You may perhaps be able to prevent men from slandering the law of Buddha, but you will only do so by violating the Precepts.

The Master. After all that you have heard, after all my quotations from the Scriptures, do you still hold this position? Can you not perceive the truth of my arguments? I am talking about the hatred we should have for the slanderers of Buddhism: I am putting no limitations on the sons of Buddha. Beheading was the punishment assigned by the law of Buddhism before Shaka's times; the principle of the Sutras since Nonin has been only so accommodate the principles of the primitive faith to the prejudices of later ages. If only all classes of people everywhere in the country would unite in abjuring error and following that which is righteous and true, what trouble or misfortune could happen?

The Visitor (composedly). Buddhism is a very wide subject. It embraces a very wide range of opinions, some of which are very obscure, so that it is hard to discover the exact meanings. Honen's Senchaku is still in circulation, despite its condemnation, and the entire rejection of the Scriptures, of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, is still being preached. You have given me Scriptural authority for your assertion that, under such circumstances,

saints and good deities will forsake the land, and I am more than half convinced by your arguments. And it is my sincere desire that the country henceforth may be peaceful and happy, from the sovereign on the throne to the lowest classes of the people. If we cease paying reverence to a single heretic, and, instead, reverence the mass of the priesthood, we can, I think, calm the white waves on the sea of Buddhism and clear its mountain-sides of scrub, so that our land will compare with the happiest periods of Chinese history, and men shall rightly appreciate the good points of Buddhism by noting its depths and its shallows.